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Vbus Over Range, but No PV

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(@coolrunnings)
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Joined: 3 weeks ago

I have an 18kpv that throws a Vbus Over Range fault with certain loads. The manual indicates this is a problem with PV voltage, but there is no PV to this inverter. All the solar stuff is handled by Victron equipment. This inverter only has battery, generator input, and AC output connected. Hair dryers and occasionally cause the fault, but mainly it is an Eaton 3 kVA UPS that really does it. It will stay online for about 1 minutes and then the inverter will fault with the Vbus problem, and then come back online for 5 or 10 seconds and trip off again. I noticed that having another load on, like an incandescent light, mitigates the problem most of the time, but it still happens more than I would like, and usually at the most inopportune times.

Anyone have any theories?

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(@coolrunnings)
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Joined: 3 weeks ago

Come on! Someone has to have some idea why this inverter would say this despite having no PV input?

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Joel Brodeur
Posts: 274
(@joel-brodeur)
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Joined: 4 months ago

I have seen a few threads on here and other places regarding this.  The typical culprit is often either a grounding issue someplace, needing a firmware update, or there was one that ended up being a multifunction printer (believe or not, that was with a 6000xp I believe).

It seems you have narrowed it down to the Eaton 3kVA UPS.

I would suggest calling your supplier or using the contact for on the EG4 site and work with a tech directly on this.

But a few things you might chase out.

You mentioned that having something else on tends to mitigate the problem.

Is that other load generally on the other leg of the 240 than the UPS or the dryer?

I have read a few vague references to leg imbalance issues where if one leg is significantly higher than the other leg it can cause problems.  I have not investigated it all but just read about it in passing.

On something like this though I would really suggest reaching out to the EG4 techs using this link:

EG4 Technical Support - EG4 Electronics

Sorry I wasn't any help and maybe someone else will chime in.

JB

 

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(@jlankford)
Joined: 4 months ago

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Posted by: @joel-brodeur

I have read a few vague references to leg imbalance issues where if one leg is significantly higher than the other leg it can cause problems.  I have not investigated it all but just read about it in passing.

JB

The 18K spec states it can handle up to a 4,000 watt line imbalance. So it would be worth looking at this further to see if the Eaton UPS load along with something else on the same line is approaching 4kW. The OP could look at the data history for EPS L1 and L2 power output to see if there's a large line imbalance and a timestamp correlation with the alarm.

EPS power

 

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Posts: 8
Topic starter
(@coolrunnings)
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Joined: 3 weeks ago

I made a separate post about how I solved this, but it is apparently stuck in moderation hell, so maybe I can get the word out here. This problem seems to be caused by non-linear loads with poor power factor. Some hair dryers use half-wave rectification to get a low power setting and this drives the inverter crazy. My UPS has a bad power factor to similar result. Another poster here was having a problem with a laser printer in his parents' camper and I verified a similar result with a laser printer.

Since power factor seems to be the culprit, power factor correction seems to be the answer. I experimented with some motor run capacitors that I had on hand and found that I could get a stable result with my UPS with 50 uF. I need 160 uF to get the inverter to stay online with a hair dryer and the UPS. And with 240 uF the inverter will handle anything I throw at it. So my solution is to get large electrical enclosure and put the capacitors in it, protected by a 30 amp breaker.

With 240 uF of capacitance, about 21 amps flows. But the cool thing is, this is purely reactive current and doesn't represent any real power. The inverter doesn't even register it on the screen. In other words, even though 21 amps is flowing through the capacitor wires, almost no power is being drawn from my batteries. I will experiment with adding some resistors in series to reduce the current and see if it still allows those pesky loads to operate fault free. But for now, I'll live with the 21 amps.

Maybe EG4 will send me a free battery or two for solving this problem😁

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(@jlankford)
Joined: 4 months ago

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Posts: 135

@coolrunnings 

Thanks for sharing the solution here.

Keep in mind the batteries won't register any current unless it is above some shunt measurement threshold, typically around 0.5A for each battery. How are you determining no power consumption from the battery bank? Are you measuring the DC current yourself, or depending on the battery BMS current value reporting to the inverter?

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(@coolrunnings)
Joined: 3 weeks ago

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@jlankford Measuring the battery current with an ammeter with no PV on, as well as a shunt for the Victron Cerbo GX. Plus the EG4 screen shows 0 watts when no other loads are connected. In the real world, there is some resistive loss in the wires and the the capacitor's ESR, so some small amount of power is required to take up that slack. But for the most part, it is all reactive current.

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(@jlankford)
Joined: 4 months ago

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@coolrunnings 

Cool. I would trust everything you listed except the EG4 screen. My system, consisting of one 18Kpv and six LL-S rack units, can consume up to about 150 watts of battery current without it registering on the BMS and thus not be displayed on the inverter screen nor be included in the BMS SOC calculations. Your Victron shunt is a much more accurate method of measurement.

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(@jlankford)
Joined: 4 months ago

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Posts: 135

@coolrunnings 

...can't edit my previous post. I just saw your other post about the Cerbo...

So without a BMS input, I'm curious how the 18K determines the battery current / power consumption it's displaying when it's running in open loop. In closed loop it gets the battery current info from the BMS.

FYI, if you have the Power Backup setting enabled on the 18K, then it is consuming about 70 watts of EPS standby power from your battery bank (it doesn't pull this power from the grid even if it has a grid connection). That's a continuous load that my system doesn't display or log at all. It amounts to about a 6% drop in SOC per day, while the system keeps reported 100%...

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(@coolrunnings)
Joined: 3 weeks ago

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Posts: 8

@jlankford I would assume that it knows how many AC amps it's producing to determine the power output. Does it not know how many DC amps are coming into it?

At any rate, the Cerbo does see the idle draw of the EG4, but I was ignoring that for the capacitor power factor discussion. It doesn't change with or without the capacitors.

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