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Question Vbus over range fault 18kpv

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Posts: 14
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(@wfbiggin)
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I've been fighting with this intermittent problem for some time, exchanged emails for awhile with signature solar who i bought the 18kpv from and the only thing we've been able to come up with is that it doesnt make any sense. My pv array only outputs a little over 200 volts so well within the limits of the inverter. For the last week or so it had been problem free, and silly me saw that there was a firmware update available and figured I'd update. The problem returned with a vengeance. I am running a little off grid system for my grandparents camper, 1 inverter 2 batteries, and a small for now 1600 watt pv array. The only load is the outlet for the camper. Even without the pv turned on it throws this fault almost immediately after i plug in the camper. Thankfully my grandparents winter over elsewhere so I can work on this without disrupting them, I am out of ideas. What could possibly make the inverter think that the pv voltage is too high with a pv array that only puts out 200 volts and when the pv array isnt even turned on? The tech mentioned that grounding the pv panels to the inverter can cause issues and they're not grounded to the inverter, they are grounded about 20 feet from the inverter with their own ground rod. As far as they could see the wiring was fine and the inverter settings were fine. There is a ground going from a ground rod to the inverter. 

110v outlet with camper outlet
AC Output Voltage
camper outlet box
Battery Voltage
Camper outlet
Load Connection
Main and only panel
Battery Connection
PV Voltage
Overview
PV Connection

 

 

 

27 Replies
Joel Brodeur
Posts: 121
(@joel-brodeur)
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Joined: 2 months ago

This is going to sound weird but....  I have seen some issues with RV setups that cause some very strange behaviors.  Quit often it is associated with grounding, specifically the NG bond.  Are you able to confirm only 1 NG bond in the system?

JB

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Topic starter
(@wfbiggin)
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Joined: 1 week ago

As far as I know there is only one. There is only one in the wiring that we've done, but if there is another in amongst the camper wiring I have no idea.

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Joel Brodeur
(@joel-brodeur)
Joined: 2 months ago

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@wfbiggin Based on the images, I am not seeing an NG bond.  Are you just using the one in the inverter?

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Posts: 14
Topic starter
(@wfbiggin)
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Yes just the one inverter. I added one after I took those pictures and forgot to take new pictures, these are from when i initially started talking to the signature solar tech and its been awhile. Someone in a facebook group mentioned that lacking too. I added the NG bond between the inverter ground and neutral since that is where the main ground comes in.

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Joel Brodeur
(@joel-brodeur)
Joined: 2 months ago

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@wfbiggin When you added the physical NG bond, did you remember to disable the NG bond in the inverter?

JB

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(@wfbiggin)
Joined: 1 week ago

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@joel-brodeur  I saw no settings in the 18kpv about NG bond - do you know where that setting is by chance and I'll check on that.

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Joel Brodeur
(@joel-brodeur)
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@wfbiggin Me being confused.  for some stoopid reason I was thinking the 6000xp.  Don't think (don't know) id 18K has one or not.  Assuming not though.

Sorry for the confusion.

JB

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(@wfbiggin)
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@joel-brodeur No worries. I'd be overjoyed if it was just that I overlooked something simple like that.

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Joel Brodeur
(@joel-brodeur)
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@wfbiggin I would not think that the RV has an NG bond but just for testing's sake, could you unplug the RV, make sure there is no power on in the RV and check for continuity between neutral and ground on the RV plug?

Just an idea.  Technically I do not believe that an RV should have an NG bond internally as they should get it from whatever they are plugged into, but sometimes people make modifications. 🙂

JB

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(@wfbiggin)
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@joel-brodeur  Well it doesn't read as open when I put the meter on those terminals but the reading is quite high like 50M ohms.

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Joel Brodeur
(@joel-brodeur)
Joined: 2 months ago

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@wfbiggin M not m? That is weird.  50 M-Ohms seems like too much for just wire length vagaries in the meter.

I am guessing that the RV has an inverter in it and maybe the inverter has some kind of load between neutral and ground that is causing resistance.

If I understand your OP the issue only arises when you have the RV plugged in correct?

If so, maybe you could try a couple of things:

If you have something else that you could plug in and try instead of the RV to see if the fault continues to occur?  Try to find something that would take a relatively continuous load like the RV would.

If the "new" load does not cause a fault, then try to isolate load paths in the RV.  start by turning off the RV inverter if you can - if the fault continues then maybe something in the supply wire.  If it doesn't return, then turn on RV inverter and turn off all RV breakers-see if fault returns if so, possibly something in the inverter itself.  If the fault doesn't return, then turn on one breaker at a time and see if fault returns if fault return on a specific load line, then start investigating that particular line.

Other than that, I have just about reached the max of my diagnostic skills. Sorry.  Wish I could swing over and troubleshoot with you.  This really has my curiosity up.

 

Hope this helps,

JB

 

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(@wfbiggin)
Joined: 1 week ago

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@joel-brodeur I actually had that very thought today, we have an old 220v stove that we use outside, and a length of the wire with the same plug as the camper so I wired the stove up to that and plugged it in the same outlet on the solar we run the camper from. So far over an hour in at 2.5kw load and no faults. 

The camper does have an internal battery that all the 12v systems can run from when its not plugged in, not sure if any of the 110v stuff will run from that but I know the battery charges when the campers plugged in so there would almost have to be an inverter of some kind in the mix to accomplish that. Don't know if it can be disabled, that will require looking into the camper wiring more, but its certainly worth investigating.

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(@jlankford)
Joined: 4 weeks ago

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Posts: 23

@wfbiggin 

Your RV most certainly has a converter (not inverter) which will power the 12VDC systems in the camper and charge the battery while connected to shore power. The converter will be connected to shore power via one of the 120VAC circuit breakers in the RV's power distribution center. So, the fact that your battery is getting charged is not an indication that you have an inverter in the RV.

I'm puzzled at why you guys are confused by the high reading on the ohmmeter. You at first expected that there is no NG bond present in the RV, and then a reading of 50 M-ohm with the meter pretty much confirms that fact. That's a high enough reading to essentially indicate an open circuit for the sake of your NG bond test.

I have what may be a stupid question... I'm wondering why the Vbus over-range fault is making you assume this is a PV over voltage indication? My backup system has no PV at the moment - battery bank only - and my 18Kpv indicates a continuous Vbus value of 318V - this isn't coming from a PV source.

Are you certain that your RV shore power outlet is wired correctly? Did you do this yourself, or did an electrician install the outlet box? FYI, it is a very common mistake made by licensed electricians that this outlet should be wired the same as a 240VAC clothes dryer because the plug configuration is identical. But they are NOT wired the same. I've attached a guide sheet that explains this, so it may be worth checking even if you think it's correct.

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(@wfbiggin)
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@jlankford  The outlet box that feeds the camper came prewired, we just had to run the feeder lines to it. Grandpa did that, and I just assumed everything in the box was correct. He is not an electrician but he does have a lot of experience so I trust his work. I looked over that pdf and the outlet described there is not the same as the outlet for the camper. The outlet for the camper is 4 prong,

Camper outlet

  this is the back side of it. As for why I assumed the vbus over voltage was a pv over voltage issue, the book told me thats what it indicated. After doing more research and talking to the tech from signature solar it sounds like often this is a grounding issue, but we can't find it.

image

   if that picture wont blow up properly its page 55 of the 18kpv manual. I see three vbus charts on the data screen of the web interface. One is vBus1(V) and vBus2(V) and the other vBusP(V) - right now vbus1 reads a steady 399.7v with the pv array turned off vbus2 reads 322v and vbusP 199.8v Im not sure what these are telling me or what those figures should ideally should be reading though.

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(@jlankford)
Joined: 4 weeks ago

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@wfbiggin 

OK, your RV uses a 50amp service, not the 30amp service I had assumed (I should have looked more carefully at your photos).

Your three vBus readings are the same as mine. Right now, vBus1 = 399.8V, vBus2 = 318.8V, vBusP = 201.7V. Looking at my data history, these do appear to be related to DC input only - for me that means battery only. The only time in the data history I see these vBus values change is when I disconnect the battery bank. Grid voltage is still present and supplying the house via pass through, but the vBus readings drop to zero until I reconnect the battery bank. They do not change as the battery voltage or SOC changes from 100% down to 20% - all three values are basically steady state.

Back to your RV connection... what happens if you turn off the main VAC breaker in the RV before you plug into the RV outlet? Does your fault still occur? Does it only occur when you switch the main breaker back on? If the fault occurs when you turn on the main breaker, then you could start troubleshooting by turning off all the RV branch circuit breakers and try to isolate which branch may be causing a problem. If the fault occurs even if the main breaker is off, then I would look carefully in the RV power distribution panel for wiring faults at the AC input side. Also. since you used a different cable to connect your 220v stove during that load test, then you haven't ruled out a wiring fault in the RV connection cable itself.

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(@wfbiggin)
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@jlankford Ok, after a bunch of tedious walking back and forth it seems like the fault only happens when the livingroom circuit is turned on. I am going to let the camper run for awhile with that turned off to see if it does happen again. Theres nothing in that circuit but a handful of outlets and maybe some lights. What could be wrong in that circuit that would cause this fault with the inverter?

Also during those tests the vbus readings changed. vbus1 dipped to 93v momentarily and vbusp spiked to 286.5 and then dipped to 11.4 and then spiked again to 219.9 before returning to baseline of 198.8

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Joel Brodeur
(@joel-brodeur)
Joined: 2 months ago

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@wfbiggin If it turns out that it is just the living room circuit, I suggest you first check your outlets with an outlet tester, a decent one is not very expensive and it will tell you if you have a polarity fault or a ground fault.  For the lights on the circuit, if they are traditional 120v screw in bulbs then you can grab a screw in outlet and use the aforementioned tester.  They will most likely show a ground fault but at least it is some information.  If they are just 12VDC lights, then the best bet is to just do a very good visual inspect for indications of historical sparks. Or if you can completely shut down the RV's DC and AC you can test the light fixture with a meter.  Keep in mind, if it turns out to be an issue with the living room circuit, it could be any of the following:

The fixtures

The outlets

The wiring from the breaker to any of the above

Or the breaker itself.

Although most of this is tedious to test, it is all testable.

JB

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(@jlankford)
Joined: 4 weeks ago

Eminent Member
Posts: 23

@wfbiggin 

I expect all the lights in the RV are 12VDC so none of them should be on that living room branch circuit. Are there actually some lights not working when only that one living room AC breaker is off?

FYI, in general the entire 12VDC system in the RV will be isolated from the VAC side of things, via a single 120VAC circuit breaker labeled "converter" as I mentioned earlier. But if there are any 12VDC things not working in the RV, that may be a clue so don't ignore it.

The AC and DC systems will likely share a common ground in power distribution center - look for a ground bus inside that panel or possibly just outside the box. And also, the 12VDC negative will be tied to frame ground which means your AC power is also grounded to the RV frame. This is one reason you can have weird things happening with RV wiring - if there's an NG bond somewhere, and then also a neutral path fault somewhere, this can result in a hot skin condition where the entire RV frame is energized and providing the neutral return path for the VAC.

I mention the common ground and hot skin problem because, relevant to your problem on the living room circuit, if some of those outlets are in a slide-out module on the camper then the moving wires in the slide-out are at risk of becoming abraded and possibly shorted to the metal slide-out frame. There might then be some kind of a short in the living room circuit that isn't tripping a breaker but is creating a ground fault at the inverter.

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Jared
Posts: 190
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(@jared)
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What firmware version is currently installed on both the battery and the inverter? Also, which lithium brand is selected on the inverter, and what protocol is configured on the battery? Lastly, in the data history, how does the vBat(V) value compare to the Vbat_Inv(V) value?

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