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BMS not correct in detecting capacity

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Topic starter
(@middlesiggy)
Active Member
Joined: 1 month ago

I wanted to share a recent experience.

My setup is an EG4 18KPV with 3 Internal 280ah wall mount batteries in parallel.

I live in Ohio in the US and during this last 60 days I have only seen my batteries reach 100% twice.

Over the last 2 months I have experienced something odd twice, which is this:

I would wake up in the morning, and expecting to see my batteries at 20% (as I am using the EG4 setting for my lithium batteries and SOC settings to stop using batteries thru the night at 20%). But instead I woke up to my batteries at 0%, yet I still had power.

I state it this way because the only way they would go to 0% is if grid power were off, and for some reason my Generac generator did not turn on to charge the batteries. So this was odd...

This happened about a month ago, and then on Thursday.

So what was being displayed on each battery was, yes they were at 0% power, and also on the EG4 it stated that it had lost communication with the batteries, and checking the alerts, it did report multiple "low power" and then "loss of com". Deducing the problem, this was of course because the batteries were at 0%, and hence they did not communicate.

But this should not happen.. right?

Well in speaking with Signature Solar's Tech support (they are great BTW) I floated a hypothesis that the BMS was confused, and although it was stating the batteries were say at (some percentage) in reality they were not. The tech on the call agreed with my hypothesis and after sharing with him that the batteries never fully charged but twice in 2 months, that the BMS probably learned a different "high" and "low" mark and hence the percentage values must not be accurate.

So in the meantime we have flipped the system to "Lead-Acid" and coded in the proper voltages. He stated to keep it this way for minimally 7 days (oddly specific, but maybe someone can shed some light on that statement)

I also used the AC charge function to fully charge the batteries so they would at least get a full exercise.

So here is the real question for my EG4 friends...

1) Is my hypothesis correct? did the BMS get confused and then was not able to gauge the proper percentage and hence ran the battery down all the way inadvertently.

1.1) If this is the case, wouldn't it make sense to make a "battery protection" or a "BMS protection" mode, that allowed for a full charge via grid or generator after "X" number of days of not having a full charge, to make sure the BMS knows what is going on?

1.2) OR.. possibly utilize the voltage & the SOC values to add a secondary check on the system to make sure things are working as expected.

I bring this up, because not I am stuck with this problem, which is how do I get my wife to understand the issue, and the solution, when she thinks a light a switch is "magic"...

We need a way for the system to be "smarter" and to take care of it's own maintenance functions, or have the ability to enable the "Maintenance" functions for those of us in colder not always sunny climates.

Thoughts?

Thank you

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1 Reply
Eric
 Eric
(@eric)
Joined: 3 months ago

Eminent Member
Posts: 37

Not sure what happened exactly, but once you set the Discharge cut off the inverter should stop discharging the batteries. It could be that one of the settings was wrong or the batteries were not balanced or communicating correctly. 

I recommend double checking the voltage on each battery and make sure they are within 0.5V for best results with SOC. Also, make sure all the batteries are connected properly and that they are all communicating correctly with the inverter. 

I believe Signature has you waiting 7 days to ensure that this issue doesn't occur again and to make sure the batteries are balanced.

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Posts: 125
(@jlankford)
Estimable Member
Joined: 3 months ago

Many people ignore the SOC percentages and use voltages instead, to trust what their battery state is. If charging or discharging current is small, then it's likely the BMS is losing track of the SOC whenever current is below a measurement threshold. If the SOC is not able to reset to 100% with a full charge frequently, then day after day these periods of small current can cause the SOC to drift further from reality. EG4 has confirmed here that the current measurement threshold for the LL-S rack battery is 0.5A. I don't know what it might be for the wallmount - it could be larger. And note that you have three wallmounts, so any small current will be distributed across all units and make it even more likely the current at each one could fall below the threshold.

You may want to read this DIY thread - it gives a better explanation for why the BMS-calculated SOC will drift. Also note that this guy states here that a calculated SOC simply cannot be trusted on a system that does not charge to a full 100% every day. That might be an exaggeration, but I tend to agree with this statement.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/tips-on-bms-balancer-optimization-and-various-discharge-curves-for-lf280k-v3.94834/#post-1270436

Personally, I've concluded that for my system I need to use closed loop communications, but voltage control and not SOC control. I can't trust the SOC control for the reason stated here.

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Posts: 16
(@tristan)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 months ago

Thanks for the warning.  Any idea where I can find an EG4 voltage/SOC conversion chart for my wallmount battery?  The graph in the manual doesn't seem sufficiently precise to use as a reference, and I'd like to convert from SOC to voltage as you suggest. 

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5 Replies
(@jlankford)
Joined: 3 months ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 125

@tristan 

I like this chart. It seems the closest I can find to my system's behavior.

LFP Voltage Chart (DIY Solar)
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(@twistedroutes)
Joined: 1 month ago

Active Member
Posts: 10

I was just in the situation where my generator failed so my EG4 Indoor Wallmount batteries drained completely.  I had a FAIRLY consistent power drain (not completely, so there are some approximations here).  The net result is that I was able to graph voltage over time and plot against a liner discharge approximation to give me the battery "percentiles" (assumes %charge is desirable as a linear range from 100 to 0 - this is generally what we are talking about...)

Screenshot 2025 01 21 at 4.00.39 PM

As you can see this fits the curve nicely, but with some slightly different values to the image from @JLankford (TY btw!!)

 

Hoping this helps someone with the same battery, so my values are:

%     V
========
0	45.1
1	46.1
5	49.2
10	50.3
20	50.90
30	51.5
40	51.7
50	51.9
60	52
70	52.5
80	52.7
90	52.8
100	56.2
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(@jlankford)
Joined: 3 months ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 125

@twistedroutes 

That looks like a significant discharge load - I estimate about 24 amps per wallmount battery from your graph. So these are not resting voltages and they should be significantly lower than what you'd measure for the same SOC with less or zero discharge current flowing. The chart I posted doesn't state it, but I think those should be rested values.

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(@twistedroutes)
Joined: 1 month ago

Active Member
Posts: 10

@jlankford Yah it's about 3000W but in reality, we're likely discharging the battery when we're performing the mentioned operation (discharging to X% to reset BMS), so I figure this is a good starting point for someone that doesn't have any other values to go by 🙂

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(@jlankford)
Joined: 3 months ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 125

@twistedroutes 

Yes, that's a good point, and it illustrates that in the end each person needs to find good voltage set point values that are relevant for their system, i.e. most accurate for their typical discharge/idle profile.

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Posts: 16
(@tristan)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 months ago

That helps. Thanks.

I guess I can use the per cell voltages to calculate voltages for my wall mount.  As my battery is inside, I don't think I need to be too concerned about temperature corrections.  Problem solved!

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2 Replies
(@jlankford)
Joined: 3 months ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 125

@tristan 

That 48V chart gives voltages for a 16 cell (51.2V nominal) system.

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(@tristan)
Joined: 4 months ago

Eminent Member
Posts: 16

@jlankford   Got it.  All the better. Grin

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Posts: 3
Topic starter
(@middlesiggy)
Active Member
Joined: 1 month ago

Do any of you have any idea why support said to wait minimally 7 days before switching back? is that some sort of time period the BMS cycles thru?

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