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6000 XP set solar charge limit?

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(@jpangburn)
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I'm off grid and would like to NOT have my solar panels charge the lithium batteries past 80% to increase their life span.  I see in the settings how to set an AC charge limit with the 6000 XP using SoC or voltage, so if I were connected to the grid I could tell it to stop charging my batteries at 80%.  But I don't see any settings like this for the solar panel charging connection.

Is there a way to do this using the settings?  I'm willing to write code using the API too if I had to, but it's hard to decipher what the parameters mean there so I'm hoping this can just be done in settings.

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Jared
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Posted by: @jpangburn

I'm off grid and would like to NOT have my solar panels charge the lithium batteries past 80% to increase their life span.  I see in the settings how to set an AC charge limit with the 6000 XP using SoC or voltage, so if I were connected to the grid I could tell it to stop charging my batteries at 80%.  But I don't see any settings like this for the solar panel charging connection.

Is there a way to do this using the settings?  I'm willing to write code using the API too if I had to, but it's hard to decipher what the parameters mean there so I'm hoping this can just be done in settings.

The EG4 6000XP currently does not offer a direct option to limit solar charging based on SOC. One thing you can do is to set the battery type to lead-acid mode and configure charging, float, and cut off voltage. Regular monitoring and adjustment of the voltage limit will be needed to maintain the batteries at roughly 80% capacity since voltage and SOC do not exactly correlate.

However, for optimal lithium battery lifespan, I recommend allowing an 80% depth of discharge—from 100% down to 20%—which provides a good balance between usable capacity and longevity. Additionally, lithium batteries do not require a float charge.

 

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(@dtbaker61)
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Posted by: @jared

Posted by: @jpangburn

I'm off grid and would like to NOT have my solar panels charge the lithium batteries past 80% to increase their life span.  I see in the settings how to set an AC charge limit with the 6000 XP using SoC or voltage, so if I were connected to the grid I could tell it to stop charging my batteries at 80%.  But I don't see any settings like this for the solar panel charging connection.

Is there a way to do this using the settings?  I'm willing to write code using the API too if I had to, but it's hard to decipher what the parameters mean there so I'm hoping this can just be done in settings.

The EG4 6000XP currently does not offer a direct option to limit solar charging based on SOC. One thing you can do is to set the battery type to lead-acid mode and configure charging, float, and cut off voltage. ... Additionally, lithium batteries do not require a float charge.

@jared , you gave an incorrect and incomplete response....

a. LFP charge curve *should* bulk charge to 56.2, and float at 53.5-54.0 for best results in top-balancing LFP, and

b. current firmware in 6000xp has a BUG which ignores "float" voltage setpoint when charging off-grid with 'open-loop' and battery-type=lead.... which means that the 6000xp really does NOT currently support charge control by Voltage for LFP.

c. the user *could* set batt type=lead, bulk=53.2, float=52.8, Veq=56, days=0, time=0 and effectively achieve a charge less than 100% if managing charge by voltage.... as long as it is understood that the SOC% calculations will be completely wrong in the middle and LFP open loop can only be managed by voltage, not %.

 

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(@jpangburn)
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@jared Do you think that's a feature that might be added?  Our batteries have more capacity than we need for overnight (by a large margin) so I'd rather just charge to 80% and limit discharge to 20% on most days.  I understand the lead acid mode hack but having the SoC as a display for people at the house to judge their power use is REALLY nice.  People who don't want to understand how batteries work can read the percentage gauge and easily know if it's ok to use high wattage appliances- they hate the voltage with a table thing.

We've been managing the power by dumping excess into an EV but that's often not here.  Just having the inverter stop charging at a given percentage would be really nice to increase battery longevity.

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(@dtbaker61)
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running off-grid, you really do want to charge to 100% every day possible to start the night with full batteries. A 'correct' charge curve for LFP batteries is to "bulk charge" once per day to 56.2 volts (3.5 vpc, or whatever the battery mfg recommends), and then allow the system to "float" at 53.3-54.0 volts, which is full, but not over-charging. The inverter itself self-consumes a little energy all the time, so there will be a little current going in and out all afternoon. This is fine for Li, and will not reduce their life.

If you run your system "closed loop" using rj485 communication, the batteries do this internally by themselves and you see the (calculated) SOC%, but you cannot control the end-of-charge since you are presuming the internal battery charge curves set by mfg are optimal. You can set % cutoffs at the bottom end to protect for over-discharge, and charge from grid or generator.

If you run open loop communications, and manage by Voltage, intending to have the inverter-mppt charge controller run the show, then you *should* be able to set your desired bulk and float setpoints to whatever you want... but the end-of-charge "bulk" setpoint needs to be something over 55-56 volts to enable the last little bit of internal cell balancing at low current.

The BUG in the existing 6000xp firmware is that you have to set battery type=lead-acid and manage setpoints by voltage, not SOC% because calculations for SOC in lead-acid are inaccurate for LFP. The current BUG is that system ignores the "float" voltage setpoint when running off-grid open-loop Li batteries using the "lead-acid" battery type, and EQ day=0=EQ time as described in EG4 documentation.... and the voltage sticks at the BULK voltage instead of the FLOAT voltage.

EG4 assures us they are working on this, but they have known about it for several months, and I have not seen a patch release for firmware yet (11/1/2024)

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(@jpangburn)
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@dtbaker61 I have my batteries hooked together with the rj485 cables (they are the EG4 LifePower4 type), and same connection to the 6000XP.  Originally, I did set them as lead acid and did manage as you said.  But others at the house just want to see a simple meter of how much power is available so I setup as lithium and used SoC.  So now people can just look at the monitor picture on their phones (or a tablet we leave running) to see how much power is available.

We really don't need 100% charge at night and would rather get far more charge cycles out of the batteries by not charging over 80%.  The only time charging up to 100% would be useful is before a rainy period.

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(@dtbaker61)
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@jpangburn if you are running with closed-loop rj485, and have successful communication, then setting battery type to Li (lifepower4) lets the batteries control the charge internally at end-of-charge. Presumably the internal controls are such that the battery warranty is supported. I would not worry charging to 100%, I would be more concerned with limiting discharge to no less than 20% SOC for best life

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(@jpangburn)
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@dtbaker61 thank you for your responses and suggestions!  I have every confidence that they'll last to the warranty, but that's only 5 years.  5 years is great in lead acid terms, but I'd love to get 10-15 out of them which is why I'm bothering with this.  I've read "If you use the battery at an 80% depth of discharge daily, it could last for more than 15 years" and my typical max for a day is 40% (100%-60% and back) so probably I'm fine.

But Tesla and others recommend a max of 80% for daily driving for lithium batteries, so figure they must have a reason for suggesting that depth of discharge is not the only factor- but that maximum charge is also important. The other side of that coin is those are lithium ion, while ours are LFP so maybe that is just not applicable?  Maybe that's what you're politely trying to tell me haha!  I just looked that up and the cars they've made recently with LFP says it's fine to charge them to 100 all the time.  So maybe I'm pointlessly worrying about this with a battery chemistry that only cares about DoD?

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(@dtbaker61)
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@jpangburn ... not pointless to be concerned, but better to be educated. using LFP in cars is far different than solar; mostly because of the charge current concerns. Most EV mfg recommend 'something less' than 100% charge *mostly* when fast charging at 150+kw because of thermal limitations... in fact, you may have noticed that fast chargers typically reduce current at 80% for this reason.

Level 2 charging EVs typically is between 6-11kw depending on charger.... It is actually GOOD to charge to 100% at least once a month using a L2 charger to insure cells are top-balanced and the SOC re-calibrates to know what 100% charge by resetting the internal ah-hr counter.

LFP in a Solar situation is similar to L2 charging since it is something less than 10kw.... so it is GOOD for solar battery life to charge to 100% every day possible to maximize capacity, accuracy of the SOC% displayed, and life.

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(@jpangburn)
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@dtbaker61 thank you very much!  Makes perfect sense.

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(@simply-efficient)
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If you have multiple Lifepower 4 batteries in parallel. They will likely drift apart on SOC if not charged above 80%. 

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(@jpangburn)
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@simply-efficient I've wondered where they pull the SoC they show for the inverter when there are multiple batteries.  I used to use the test app to show SoC on a tablet in the house and it would cycle through the different batteries.  On when you charged to 100 did they sync up again, if they were lower for a few days from cloudy weather (or car charging, etc) then they would drift.

Maybe they show the highest one, maybe the lowest one, maybe an average.  Who knows.  The documentation is weak but for how well this stuff works and at a competitive price, I'm surprised the documentation and website are as good as they are.

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(@simply-efficient)
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@jpangburn,  Agreed.  It would be nice to know.  My guess is that the first battery is the one that is used.  As far as I can tell, the batteries don't actually communicate between each other.  They only are able to control the charge going to their own cells.  For my clients that get a regular full charge, I don't see drifting from one battery to the next.  Clients that don't get a regular full charge ( winter ) I see more drifting and recommend a monthly full charge to keep all of the batteries in line.

Hopefully we can get @jared to chime in on this.

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(@ouijifour)
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@jpangburn My Pace bms that have 5 batteries communicating with each other , the bms reports the average of all of the batteries to the EG4 6000xp . I am reading some of these forums now because when I was in process of hooking up a different Can cable I got a Warning 004 and it seems to have locked out the charging . I have battery setup to number 2 for Pylon which is what I have Pace inverter output set for. It has been working for a week but now I have this code and am trying to figure out how to clear it. One suggestion was to shut everything down including the battery breakers , which I don't really want to do because I have a lot of things on my system I would have to reset if inverter goes off.

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(@jpangburn)
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@ouijifour I don't know what Pace or Pylon is, sorry.  I have the LifePower4 batteries.  On those, there are two types of reset (maybe yours are similar).  There's a reset button, and you can shut off the battery breakers.

In the past, I used the Test application to monitor my batteries and sometimes it would stop working.  Hitting the reset on each battery (one at a time) would usually cause it to start working again without interrupting power to the inverter because you were only resetting one at a time.  Sometimes this wouldn't work, so I'd reset using the battery breaker.  Again, if you shut one down at a time then the rest keep working so the inverter doesn't see any power difference- it still sees whatever voltage your batteries are on average (assuming you wired them all in parallel like I did).  This lets you cycle all the batteries while keeping your house running the whole time without interruption.  At least it did for me.  I'm just a user, not an expert.  I waited for the lights to come back on the current battery I had turned off and back on before moving to the next battery.  If a battery fails to come back online (whatever lights your battery has to indicate it's working), STOP and don't reset your next battery until you resolve that one.

You may want to make your own post to see if an expert chimes in with a better suggestion.  Again, I'm no expert.  My suggestion could be totally wrong and mess up your setup.  Just cause it worked for me on my batteries doesn't really mean it'll work for you on yours.

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(@ouijifour)
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@jpangburn Thanks - that is a good plan and I will give it a try turning off one battery at a time and see if that will clear the fault.  Pace bms are used in many different kinds of batteries like Jakiper, Orient Power, SOK, some Gobel, and others.

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(@dtbaker61)
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I have (finally) been able to approximate a LFP friendly charge curve with the 6000xp charge controller running the show 'open-loop' (without rj485 comms). For best performance and life the goal is to see a CC-CV charge with end-of-CVcharge at 56v+ to enable internal cell balancing, and float at 54.

batt type=lead acid

Vcharge= 56.2

Vfloat=54.0

Veq=54.4, days=0, time=0

 

Dan

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(@dtbaker61)
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these settings are working pretty well with 6000xp firmware v 190D0E. Most days I see a correct battery voltage cc-cv curve with end-of-charge at 56.2, and settling to float at 54 until sundown, then settling to 53.3 or so and discharging from there overnight.

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(@jpangburn)
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@dtbaker61 that's cool that it's working well for you!  I keep ours on the lithium setting because then the app shows percentages.  The percentages are really nice for everyone else to know how much power there is.  People want to know things like "is there enough power to run the dishwasher at night?" or "we've been running the heat pump all day, how are the batteries doing?" and giving them a percentage is key to letting them answer this stuff for themselves.  People hate the table of voltages to battery level haha

 

I really appreciated your comment about LFP being happy with 100% charge.  That's the same thing Tesla says for the cars that have LFP batteries.  You helped me connect the dots so now we just let it go to 100% and have a cutoff at 20%.  If it gets there it'll shut off power and wake people up to the fact that they've used too much power.  We can turn the generator on and turn off things like the heat pump and let the batteries recover without trashing them.

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Ron
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 Ron
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My experience is that a lower depth of discharge increases battery life ie. 30-40% SOC, but everyone has differing opinions.

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(@jpangburn)
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@ron Yeah, it's rare our batteries get below 50% and typically don't go below 60%.  I was confused about the top, thinking I should stop charging at 80% but it's clear now that LFP batteries are supposed to charge to 100%.  Unlike the lithium ion batteries they put in phones and laptops that lose longevity by charging to 100%.

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